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Center Shot Question?

Question:

Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment?  What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a reason for shifting this alignment? Norm

Response:

 > Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end  > of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just  > "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for  > right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift  > the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment?  > What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a  > reason for shifting this alignment?  >  > Norm  > Centering the rest is very important. If the arrow is too far off in either direction, it will fishtail. Lay a stick on the ground and push it from one end. If you push in the same direction that the stick is lying, it will go straight. If you push at an angle to the stick, it will go sideways. The same applies to an arrow. If it’s pushed at an angle to the center of the bow, it will go sideways. However…just complicate things:  An arrow flexes when you release. The tip is adjusted slightly to one side of the string to compensate for the flex. If you shoot fingers rather than with a release, the flex is much more exaggerated so the tip needs to be farther off center. Dick

Response:

Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting with moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like they are correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right hand shooter).  That made me wonder if anyone moves the center shot away from the recommended position for any special reasons (wrong spine, clearance or some other).  And what are these reasons? Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  > Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end >  > of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just >  > "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for >  > right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift >  > the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment? >  > What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a >  > reason for shifting this alignment? >  > Norm > Centering the rest is very important. If the arrow is too far off in > either direction, it will fishtail. Lay a stick on the ground and push > it from one end. If you push in the same direction that the stick is > lying, it will go straight. If you push at an angle to the stick, it > will go sideways. The same applies to an arrow. If it’s pushed at an > angle to the center of the bow, it will go sideways. > However…just complicate things:  An arrow flexes when you release. The > tip is adjusted slightly to one side of the string to compensate for the > flex. If you shoot fingers rather than with a release, the flex is much > more exaggerated so the tip needs to be farther off center. > Dick

Response:

Traditional English longbows have no shelf, or only a minimal shelf, so the arrow rests on the archer’s hand and is off center half the width of the bow.   The arrow deforms so much when it is leaving the bow that a little bit off center  (or a slightly warped arrow) probably makes little difference.  I have a few warped arrows that seem to shoot with the same accuracy as my straight ones ( I confess that I’m not that accurate, but can usually hit my target either with a sight or "instinctive" shooting).  I also found that helical fletching covered a multitude of sins and increased my accuracy considerably, and almost completely eliminated fishtailing.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right hand > shooter).  That made me wonder if anyone moves the center shot away from the > recommended position for any special reasons (wrong spine, clearance or some > other).  And what are these reasons? > Norm >  > Is the center shot location sacred?  Everywhere I read that the end >  > of the shaft should be aligned so that it’s right edge is just >  > "touching" the string, when the string is centered on the limbs (for >  > right-handed recurve shooters).  Is this sacred?  Does anyone shift >  > the center shot to the right or left of this recommended alignment? >  > What is the effect of shifting this alignment?  Is there ever a >  > reason for shifting this alignment? >  > Norm > Centering the rest is very important. If the arrow is too far off in > either direction, it will fishtail. Lay a stick on the ground and push > it from one end. If you push in the same direction that the stick is > lying, it will go straight. If you push at an angle to the stick, it > will go sideways. The same applies to an arrow. If it’s pushed at an > angle to the center of the bow, it will go sideways. > However…just complicate things:  An arrow flexes when you release. The > tip is adjusted slightly to one side of the string to compensate for the > flex. If you shoot fingers rather than with a release, the flex is much > more exaggerated so the tip needs to be farther off center. > Dick

Response:

> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right hand > shooter).

Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. MA

Response:

Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right hand shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser about 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I have shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so with it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make sure but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow act stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > hand > shooter). > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > MA

Response:

> I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG>

Increasing the cs makes the arrow bend more, which is logical if you think about it. Does your unfletched shafts group with the fletched? MA

Response:

How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying.  Just my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit the target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal and see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. Just my $0.02 Gord – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right hand > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser about > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I have > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so with > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make sure > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow act > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > Norm > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > with > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > they are > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > hand > > shooter). > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > MA

Response:

Miika, I am only shooting about 10m in my garage but the bareshafts are hitting pretty close to the fletched shafts,  maybe just bit to the right.  But I probably need to shoot more of both shafts with the CS moved out to be sure. Moving the CS out did move my bareshafts to the left; not sure about the fletched shafts; again need to shoot more. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off > my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same > direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > Increasing the cs makes the arrow bend more, which is logical if you > think about it. Does your unfletched shafts group with the fletched? > MA

Response:

Gord, I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or tomorrow. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. Just > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit the > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal and > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right hand > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser about > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I have > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so with > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make sure > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow act > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than desired > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > Norm > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > with > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > they are > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > > hand > > > shooter). > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > MA

Response:

> I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow.

Alu’s or carbons? For carbons 5-10m is too short, try to shoot from 30m and see what happens. MA

Response:

ACCs.  I shot some more last night with the same results.  With the standard CS the bareshafts impact 2-5cm to the right, leaning to the left fare enuf to make contact with the fletched shafts.  When I move the CS away from the riser both shafts move to the right and the bareshafts impact almost straight.  I looks like the midpoint of the bareshafts is "on target" but the pile is to the right and nock is to the left-kinds flying a little sideways. I was just wondering if anyone shot with the CS significantly diff from the recommended and if there are times when this recommended (maybe to correct for a weak/stiff spine?).  I don’t plan to leave mine out there; I just did it to see what the affect was.  I can put my spring in and bring the shafts together and group well enuf. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Alu’s or carbons? For carbons 5-10m is too short, try to shoot from > 30m and see what happens. > MA

Response:

You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, stabilizer was almost touching the paper. Just my $0.02 Gord – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Gord, > I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Norm > How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. > Just > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit > the > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal > and > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right > hand > > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser > about > > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I > have > > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so > with > > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make > sure > > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow > act > > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > > Norm > > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > > with > > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > > they are > > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser > (right > > > hand > > > > shooter). > > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > > MA

Response:

> Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > with > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > they are > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser (right > hand > shooter). > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > MA

Miika, I’m curious, is moving the CS a valid way to do fine tuning, or should it *only* ever be used as a *starting* point (*before* making pressure button changes in order to "finalise" the tuning)? -Mac

Response:

T4T and TaTa.   (TaTa is pure speculation and only useful within a very-close-to-tuned-bow, I think….   http://www.texasarchery.org/L1/DocumentsRecords.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the >excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing >just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of >the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, >stabilizer was almost touching the paper. >Just my $0.02 >Gord >Gord, >I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the >same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the >paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or >tomorrow. >Norm >>How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. >Just >>my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit >the >>target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal >and >>see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. >>Just my $0.02 >>Gord >>>Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my >>>arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right >hand >>>shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser >about >>>2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I >have >>>shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so >with >>>it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make >sure >>>but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow >act >>>stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. >>>I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than >desired >>>is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my >>>fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction >>>might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> >>>Norm >>>>>Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting >>>>with >>>>>moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like >>>>they are >>>>>correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser >(right >>>>hand >>>>>shooter). >>>>Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. >>>>MA

Response:

Thanks Gord.  I have not shot the paper that close.  I’ll give it a try to see how it compares with 5m. I really didn’t start this thread with a problem, just curious about the CS position and how everyone used it. Norm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the > excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing > just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of > the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, > stabilizer was almost touching the paper. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > Gord, > I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Norm > > How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. > Just > > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit > the > > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal > and > > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > > Just my $0.02 > > Gord > > > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > > > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right > hand > > > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser > about > > > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I > have > > > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so > with > > > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make > sure > > > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow > act > > > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > > > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > > > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > > > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > > > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > > > Norm > > > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > > > with > > > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > > > they are > > > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser > (right > > > > hand > > > > > shooter). > > > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > > > MA

Response:

> When I move the CS away from the > riser both shafts move to the right and the bareshafts impact almost > straight.

But on the right side? > I was just wondering if anyone shot with the CS significantly diff from the > recommended and if there are times when this recommended (maybe to correct > for a weak/stiff spine?).

Plunger tuning shouldn’t (and can’t be) used to correct wrong spine. It is meant only for fine tuning. Use different point weight , different poundage and different strings to get the dynamic spine desired. Correct CS can be found with specific tuning methods for CS. MA

Response:

> Miika, I’m curious, is moving the CS a valid way to do fine tuning, or > should it *only* ever be used as a *starting* point (*before* making > pressure button changes in order to "finalise" the tuning)?

I would categorize it as a fine tunig method, the recommended* CS being a "starting point". MA *Point on the left side of the string for RH archer.

Response:

Oops, you caught my typo.  Sorry.  They both moved to the left when I moved the CS to the left (out).  Good catch. So, is it best to just leave the CS aligned with the end of shaft "touching" the string unless something weird is happening?  I can leave it there, adjust my nock, put a spring in and bring the 2 shafts together at 18m.  If you haven’t noticed I do a lot of shooting with a stiff plunger just to see what happens without that correction factor.  I probably worry too much about arrow flight and not enuf about where it hits :^0   Hey, if you can’t shoot good, at least shoot a good setup:-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I move the CS away from the > riser both shafts move to the right and the bareshafts impact almost > straight. > But on the right side? > I was just wondering if anyone shot with the CS significantly diff > from the > recommended and if there are times when this recommended (maybe to > correct > for a weak/stiff spine?). > Plunger tuning shouldn’t (and can’t be) used to correct wrong spine. It > is meant only for fine tuning. Use different point weight , different > poundage and different strings to get the dynamic spine desired. > Correct CS can be found with specific tuning methods for CS. > MA

Response:

> So, is it best to just leave the CS aligned with the end of shaft "touching" > the string unless something weird is happening?

I would leave it there UNLESS your tuning and testing shows otherwise. I don’t see why it would, tough. > I probably worry too much > about arrow flight and not enuf about where it hits :^0

Well, correctly tuned bow doesn’t hurt anyone;) What kind of Fita scores are you shooting? MA

Response:

OK Gord, this is way OT for this thread but I did some more paper shooting, stiff plunger.  I get the same results at 1m, 2m, 5m and 10m.  Weak spine leaning to the left.  The lean and tear get larger the further I am from the paper up to 10m.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You should try the paper test a lot closer.  When I was shooting under the > excellent tutelage of a 5 time Canadian indoor champ, we paper tested standing > just far enough from the paper that the nock end of the arrow would be clear of > the riser.  Usually when using target stabilizer in the 30" neighbourhood, > stabilizer was almost touching the paper. > Just my $0.02 > Gord > Gord, > I have shot these animals from 5 and 10m with the normal CS and they hit the > same.  The paper test from 5M shows the same, weak.  I haven’t shot the > paper with the CS moved out.  Something to do tonight if I have time or > tomorrow. > Norm > > How your arrow sticks into the target doesn’t reflect how it is flying. > Just > > my fluke you could have an arrow fishtailing 3 inches side to side but hit > the > > target while it’s pointed straight away from you.  Paper test this animal > and > > see how the arrow is hitting just as it clears the bow. > > Just my $0.02 > > Gord > > > Now I’m confused.  When my center shot is set just next to the string my > > > arrows lean a little to the left at impact, about 10-15 degrees (right > hand > > > shooter) on every shot at 10m.  When I move my CS away from the riser > about > > > 2 shaft widths all of my shots land nearly or perfectly straight.  I > have > > > shot 100’s of shots with the standard CS alignment and about 15 or so > with > > > it set further away from the riser.  I will shoot more tonight to make > sure > > > but it sure looks like moving the CS away from the riser made the arrow > act > > > stiffer.  All this is shot with a stiff plunger-no spring, just a stick. > > > I was thinking that a part of the reason the shaft flexes more than > desired > > > is the flex it gets from the string moving sideways when it rolls off my > > > fingers.  So I thought maybe moving the pile further that same direction > > > might help.  Maybe I’m thinking too much<BG> > > > Norm > > > > > Yes, I am familiar with Archers Paradox.  I have been experimenting > > > > with > > > > > moving my center shot.  I can make my slightly weak shafts act like > > > > they are > > > > > correctly spined by moving the center shot away from the riser > (right > > > > hand > > > > > shooter). > > > > Moving the center shot away from the riser makes the arrow act weaker. > > > > MA

Response:

> OK Gord, this is way OT for this thread but I did some more paper shooting, > stiff plunger.  I get the same results at 1m, 2m, 5m and 10m.  Weak spine > leaning to the left.  The lean and tear get larger the further I am from the > paper up to 10m.

Do you shoot better with stiff or weak arrow? MA

Response:

Don’t know.  Never shot a stiff arrow on this bow.  I plan to get a set of stiffer shafts this week.  I’m shooting 3L-18s.  But I think 3-28s would more suit my setup.  I draw about 29.5" and about 43#.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK Gord, this is way OT for this thread but I did some more paper > shooting, > stiff plunger.  I get the same results at 1m, 2m, 5m and 10m.  Weak > spine > leaning to the left.  The lean and tear get larger the further I am > from the > paper up to 10m. > Do you shoot better with stiff or weak arrow? > MA

Response:

> Don’t know.  Never shot a stiff arrow on this bow.  I plan to get a set of > stiffer shafts this week.  I’m shooting 3L-18s.  But I think 3-28s would > more suit my setup.  I draw about 29.5" and about 43#.

Snap. I’ve got 3-28’s, and while they spine right, the FOC isn’t great. Might be worth thinking about 3-39’s with 100 grain points. 7om

Response:

Tom, I’m doing 3L-18s with 100 grain piles, 1.75" Flex Fletch vanes (straight), G nocks, FF 16 strand, and a brass nockset now.  I bet 3-39s with 100 would be too stiff for me.  Maybe I could crank up the #s a bit.  What is the #s on your fingers? My current FOC with the 18s is about 11.5.  I know I could just go with the 87g piles for my 18s and come a lot closer to the correct spine but when I move outdoors the wind would wreak havoc on my already lame shooting.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Don’t know.  Never shot a stiff arrow on this bow.  I plan to get a set of > stiffer shafts this week.  I’m shooting 3L-18s.  But I think 3-28s would > more suit my setup.  I draw about 29.5" and about 43#. > Snap. I’ve got 3-28’s, and while they spine right, the FOC isn’t great. > Might be worth thinking about 3-39’s with 100 grain points. > 7om

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